CBC Forum: What are your thoughts on the Toronto streetcar shooting verdict?
A Toronto police officer has been found guilty of attempted murder even though the person he shot died from his wounds. What do think of the verdict?
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Good afternoon. Our latest CBC Forum topic is this story:
Toronto constable guilty of attempted murder in 2013 streetcar shooting of teen
A jury has found Toronto police Const. James Forcillo guilty of attempted murder in the 2013 shooting death of Sammy Yatim, but not guilty of second-degree murder, after six days of deliberations. -
Toronto police Const. James Forcillo was found guilty of attempted murder in the 2013 shooting death of Sammy Yatim, but not guilty of second-degree murder.
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The jury believed Forcillo was justified in firing the first three shots at Yatim, but not justified in the second round of shots at Yatim, hence guilty of attempted murder.
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And just who will protect the honest people?Our Hero is James Forcillo, where can i send his funds for a Defence?God bless him,. -
I may be misguided in thinking that if you're guilty of attempted murder and the person dies you are then a murderer. Personally, I disagree with the jury. There was no one at risk if Sammy Yatim had been left alone until he cooled down, or got hungry, or went to sleep. I feel that the first shot was attempted murder, and that James Forcillo should never have been hired into his position.
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9 bullets was certainly over the top. One bullet from a trained officer should have been enough to disable this kid.
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As a person who has family with mental health issues and as a teacher who observes mental health issues in her students and as a civilian who has the utmost respect for our wonderful police force, I have mixed feelings. I do believe that the fates of both Sammy and James should not be in vain. James' four-year sentence would be better spent in community service helping the police improve their training and first response with people who have mental health issues and/or are under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. I recommend all police officers take the Mental Health First Aid Course offered by the Mental Health Commission of Canada, and not just rookie officers or police college students.
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Taser first, then shoot, but not nine bullets!
Julie Bondar-Bushraat 4:29 PM -
sad situation, young man dead, young officer's life ruined, families on both sides deeply affected, thanks to the courts and the jury, for their service, i hope he can take his lumps and salvage the rest of his life, something young Sammy wont be able to do -
personally, if you screw with the police you are flipping a coin. just better to not risk your life. also he was dead probably after 1 or 2. i am not sure why the other bullets matters. to me, i see it as he killed or did not kill. but in all honesty, regardless of what happened. the ultimate choice was in the hands of the deceased. such a waste. -
When the public is placed in danger, the police are called to stop the violence. If some of the public have a problem with the bullet count, so be it. The public was protected, the officer did his job and if I ever need assistance I hope the police officer is a good shot.
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Is it not ironic that in the middle of a trial of a police officer for excessive use of a fire arm the police are given assault rifles !
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This is what Joseph McCallion was referring to:
Front-line police officers in Toronto to get military-style assault rifles
Dozens of front-line Toronto police officers will soon be equipped with semi-automatic assault rifles similar to those carried by Canadian Forces soldiers and specialized tactical units, CBC News has learned. -
Hi, folks. Please don't comment directly on the "welcome to CBC Forum" post at the top. I can't accept them there because they end up dominating the screen.
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Not enough effort by cops to de-escalate the situation. Reasonable verdict.
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This is not about the police officers in general who do a great job, this is about one officer's decision to quickly escalate the situation rather than de-escalate and consider other options. Aren't officers trained to handle these situations and to try to ensure everyone lives including the perpetrator? He was engaged in talking with the officer at the time he was shot, but it would appear no attempt was made to settle things down. Just doesn't seem right to me.
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This is a sad story for both families. As the police must know and should trained now that a camera is on them every time they go out for a call. There was no desecration 50 seconds is surely not enough and no one was in any danger. There must be better training from the police to not just come to a rash decision. The not every officer I am sure has a tough job everyday but as the chief said " no lives lost and everybody comes out of the situation alive. This was a choice Forcillo made and there were other choices available and he didn't use them, he wasn't alone and had a number of officers around him that could of helped to desclate the the situation. I am sure that with the number of them around the streetcar one of them could of one up with desecration process instead of just waiting under 1 minute. Again it is a shame for both families but I agree with the prosecution that there were other choices that evening to desclate as no one was in danger.
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.AS for the timing of the police purchase of the assault rifles.......... they are making a clear statement of the direction they've chosen over the direction they could have moved towards i.e. proper training in how to bring down a person in some mental distress or in the act of some minor crime ....... we are moving into the militarized zone of our Americuhn cousins .....
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IMO the guy got off lightly. In any case he was found guilty i.e. convicted of attempted murder. So why was he suspended WITH pay??? -
Guilty of doing his job and protecting the public, nothing more. Mr. Yatim took his own life in his hands when he pulled the knife. He chose poorly and before anyone says he had no choice, he absolutely did.
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Getting several comments asking about how the verdict makes sense. Here's what Toronto defence lawyer (not affiliated with the case) told The Canadian Press:
"What the jury must've found was that he didn't intend to kill him with the first three shots -- but they must have found that he did intend to kill him with the second set of shots, but because those shots were not and could not have been fatal, that's why it's an attempted murder."
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As a retired army Sgt., I do not understand how in a situation such as what happened...you have at least 20 police officers on scene, but no one particularly in charge of the situation, and anyone of the officers can engage the subject at will .... it's like a bunch of cowboys showing up. In a military situation, someone would be in control, who would give orders on what actions would take place .... nobody would fire their weapons unless told so.... In policing, they have to find a better way to control and handle the situation, so seemingly helpless people do not get killed with deadly force.
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I think the Attempted Murder charge is a sham.
The evidence was clear, the first three shots killed him. The Jury should have convicted James Forcillo Murder or Manslaughter or found him not guilty. You find him not guilty of of Murder, but the guy dies and he's guilty of Attempted Murder. What an easy way out. -
My thoughts are there was/is not enough training given to police officers to diffuse situations such as this one. I am sure should we took a consensus of like situations as the Yatim case and revealed how the outcome resulted, we would find there are many such incidents that go unheard of in Canada. I think Focillo panicked and it was at that point he lost the situation.
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A fair verdict. Forcillo had a history of pulling his gun too often and could have worked to de-escalate the situation instead of challenging Yatim. Good work by the jury in a tricky case.
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Police just like any one else should follow the law and be accountable. Unfortunately this has not been the case . Hopefully the verdict on this case will make a positive change in police behavior towards the public and help to hold police accountable.
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I spent 38 years in policing and 30 with the RCMP. I hear comments from people that the knife Yatim was wielding was a pocket knife. It was not. It was a switch blade. Many years ago I had a knife thrown at me just missing my head and lodging in a wooden door in a hospital. This person was about 20' feet from me. I am lucky I wasn't struck in the head. Most people do not realize that knives are deadly and when a police officer orders someone to drop the knife it is for a reason. Police officers are not trained to shoot the knife out of the persons hand like it is done on TV. I believe this verdict sets an extremely dangerous precedent throughout the policing community. I hope there is an appeal to this verdict. As to diffusing the situation that only works if the subject is listening Yatim was not doing that. -
poor vetting of police candidates.... nation wide , north american wide. A flavouring of the last few decades that needs to be corrected, The hierarchy is at fault for this... Forcillo , guilty as charged. The only verdict possible. And a young boy is blown away.
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A positive change in police behavior only come with better training and an "independent" body that oversees police conducts.
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If I fire 6 shots at someone after I fired 3 shots into someone, I wonder if I would only be found guilty of Attempted Murder?
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This decision is to please both side. If it were an ordinary man on the street, the outcome would have been different. Sure, Yatim was the initiator, but Forcillo is a trained peace officer, he chose not to follow his training. As usual, they are well insulated, hence today's verdict.
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Pocket knife or switch blade, does not matter. it looked 2 inches big, 20 feet from the officers. There was no threat to anyone.
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I agree with the head of the police union, this should send a "chilling message" to Toronto police officers. After all one of the purposes of criminal charges is to have a deterrent effect, and police officers do need to learn to chill in situations like this. I doubt that's what he meant, unfortunately.
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Is a sad situation that has gone on for a long time in Toronto. In that sense I blame the police culture that Forcillo is part of more so than Forcillo. I wonder how many Toronto police officers believe he was wrong. Any one that witnessed the G20 behavior saw it first hand. We have had study after study, and nothing ever happens all we get is lip service. Also, giving police more and more aggressive equipment just reinforces aggressiveness i.e. the new rifles.
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It is in Canada's nature to find the middle ground in much that we do!
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another situation where a propelled net would have saved a life and prevented a jail sentence - FAR too much emphasis is placed on the use of force by police officers instead of peaceful resolutions
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If a regular joe did what james did the trial or deliberations would not last as long and joe would be sent away for life. Darn right I'm not happy
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This verdict will have major implications for police and sadly will likely cost more lives as a result of police not willing to respond to violent situations for fear of trial by media. The defense did not get to present all the arguments and the jury as a result of that and the formed opinion prior to the trial even starting. Yatim made a decision that day to take mind altering drugs and conduct himself in a manner that tragically ended in his demise. Sadly the facts that would have changed the verdict were never heard by the jury.
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In regards to ProPatria's comment, here's a look at what the jury didn't hear:
Suicide by cop? What the James Forcillo murder trial jury didn't hear
Now that the jury in the murder trial of Const. James Forcillo has begun deliberations, we can report on what the jurors didn't hear, including a defence theory that Sammy Yatim, 18, was trying to get a police officer to kill him the night he was fatally shot. -
A guilty verdict should never have been delivered here, as a police officer this sends a bad message that will cause ripples in the future. Fot those of you saying why did he not shoot him in the leg, it does not work like that training dictates you shoot at the centre of mass until the threat is gone. Those of you saying why are we not like UK cops again, the criminals there tend not to use guns hear as much. I hope an appeal is successful
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good documentary on it all
www.cbc.ca/firsthand/episodes/hold-your-fire
cops have way way way too much power... with all that power should come responsibility and accountability. So many times they can get away with murder.
I've seen it with my own eyes..
need new ways of policing, what we have now is the wild west way of policing. Not working... -
Here is the CBC documentary jac was referring to:
A look at the rise in lethal shootings of the mentally ill by police in North America. - Firsthand - CBC-TV
Why do police end up killing our most vulnerable – people in mental crisis – and what can be done to change that? -
There was a security guard working at the Eaton's Centre, who was obviously better trained than our Toronto Police, that professionally took down an agitated man with a machete (who used it earlier to attack a stranger) in a skilled and non dramatic manner. A clear example of how our Toronto Police should operate, especially when there is no urgent, pressing danger.
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Here is the machete takedown trail_blazer1 mentioned:
Takedown of machete attack suspect captured on video
Security camera footage released Thursday captured the moment private security guard Nate McNeil tackled a man now charged in a random machete attack in downtown Toronto on Wednesday.
