CBC Forum: What happens to passwords when you die
The ownership of digital property after death a murky issue, says estate lawyer Daniel Nelson. Our Go Public story about widow who went to Apple to get her dead husband's password has raised many questions.
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Welcome to CBC Forum. Our topic today is one that will come up more often as our use of digital devices and media increase.
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The ownership of digital property after death a murky issue, says estate lawyer Daniel Nelson.
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Our Go Public story about a widow who went to Apple to get her dead husband's password has raised many questions.
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Have you had experiences with access to online accounts after the death of a loved one?
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These stories make we "older folks' appear petty and inept. They rank right up there with people who get taken by door-to-door contractors and members of the Nigerian Royal Family.
I'm sorry that this woman can't gain access to her favourite card game. Perhaps she should have discussed it with her husband during his lifetime.
Apple should be praised, not scorned, for protecting all of us be enforcing its well known policies. -
Perhaps, pdhlondon, but no other issue arising from Mr. Bush's death required a court order, including real estate. And Apple admitted it was a misunderstanding.
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There should indeed be a process available to next of kin, but it should absolutely require opting-in from the account holder. It would be concerning if Apple, and other technology firms, provided access to all of your data after your death. They are private documents. I applaud Apple for being this firm about digital privacy. With that said, there needs to be an improvement in the way digital ownership is explained to older customers; it should have been made clear that the private account holder maintains ownership of their purchase history and data. Perhaps introduce a properly shared account with delegated access similar to financial accounts?
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Yes, some digital companies, such as Facebook, are updating policies for ownership of accounts after death: Facebook legacy contact can keep your profile updated after you die
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Apple won't know her husband's password! They can only reset it via email, and this is standard across the entire IT industry. Perhaps she's getting confused with that or something - if she doesn't have access to a shared email account where the password reset would be sent then that's another matter (they perhaps should have discussed that before he passed), but Apple is in the right here. -
As the story indicates, after Go Public contacted Apple, they apologized and they're now working with Bush to work this out without a court order.
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All she had to do was write down the password when he was alive. Or, she could simply do a 3 minute reset of the iPad to factory settings to completely eliminate his password protection. Finally, nothing could have been lost if they had done full (free) backups to iCloud which she could have recovered after resetting the device.
People want all the benefits of new technology but seem to refuse to understand and apply its rules. -
He didn't write down the password when he was alive. That's the point. And she couldn't get to the iCloud backup with the AppleID password.
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I keep seeing people saying "apple is in the right here" and "I applaud Apple". I wonder how many of those commentators own apple devices. I'm going to bet all of them. Why in the world should the Apple require a court order when the transfer of real estate, pensions and other much more critical items have rational requirements. My bet is that this is purely a dollar based move on Apples part. If you can't hand it down then you can sell the same items (or bits/Bytes) again. The article says they're working on it, not that it has been resolved and this "generous" solution only came to be after the issue was brought to light on a national news source.As for the reset the device crowd - you'd still have lost access to everything he had stored after resetting.
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Makes perfect sence to me. They are following the rules and guidlines they set out. Honestly, I wouldn't want my family having my password after my death anyways.
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I understand her frustration, but I think we can all take a lesson from this and make sure that we share our passwords with one person we trust, so that WHEN (not if) we die, this won't happen. It's all part of preparing for our inevitable departure. We learn so little in life about preparing for our death, when death is inevitable.
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Yes, Wild Woman, that's the advice of the estate lawyer we contacted. He advice that wills include instructions on where to find passwords, although not the passwords themselves.
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I'd be outraged with Apple if they had made the password available. One of the several reasons I use Apple is my confidence in their reliable confidentiality and security measures.
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beunokw: Even after your family provided serial numbers for the items, a copy of the will, and a notarized death certificate? Apple admitted that a court order shouldn't be necessary.
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In Ontario at least, the digital legacy should become part of the estate and under Ontario law, the estate executor has control of that. With a certificate of death from a funeral director, notarized if necessary, there should be no issue at all. There isn't in any other estate matter; banks, insurance companies, everything. Perhaps Apple needs to move into the 20th century. Another reason why I dislike their closed farm system.
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I was fortunate that my husband left me a coded list of all of his, my and our children's passwords. I refer to it often. I sometimes felt companies were insensitive. A spouse has a legal right to her husband's property; Apple could be kinder.
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The probate lawyer should be empowered to access passwords as part of the probate process. Any funds should be released to beneficiaries by cheque and the deceased's account closed.
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It should be hard, same rules should apply for police as to the public to gain access. I know there's a sob story here (widow, just wants to play her game) but good security and digital rights need to be universal. Passwords and digital accounts need to be made a part of estate planning.
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Our friends at Spark on CBC Radio had a piece about this topic this summer: Death and Digital Legacy with Adele McAlear
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When I go, I want to be cremated along with all hard drives and memory sticks. Trust me, it will be easier this way..
But more seriously, leaving relevant passwords with a lawyer (along with the will/estate) should probably become a normal thing to do. -
@RationalVoice - "My bet is that this is purely a dollar based move on Apples part. If you can't hand it down then you can sell the same items (or bits/Bytes) again. "
Goodness me, no. Even for Apple, that would be monstrous. It comes down to a simple matter of how the technology works, what their security policy is, and how this lady interprets all that. I'm sure this is not the first time this has happened and that it will all get resolved properly. -
I'm astounded at the attitudes of people that don't (won't) share such information with loved ones. Our children are fully aware of our wills and why decisions were made. No fighting after we are gone. My wife and I have a file of passwords for various web sites in a secure location off line. I really wonder at the attitudes that someones itunes account is theirs and their relatives are out of luck, or the secret lives they lead that they don't want loved ones to know about.
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Well it's Apple...you never really "own" an Apple product. They like to keep control over everything you can do with it. That's why I avoid their products. -
An Apple ID is the same as a club membership and no more. Real information assets held with governments, financial institutions or the like have shared secrets that a close family member could have access to.
Have plan for your digital assets that you share otherwise they die when you go to the great offline. -
This should not be a front page story. Getting access to the Apple account is not a right. Its a privilege and because they did not share the password in that family they lost the privilege. I find the CBC involvement in this a waste of money.
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ColderThanMars: I appears that Apple disagrees with you since they're now working with the Bushes to get access to the account back.
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If you forget your Apple ID and/or password, it seems all you need is access to the email that the user (the husband in this case) originally signed in on.
Try this link:
osxdaily.com -
You have to remember that not everyone is thinking clearly when they are sick or dying. My father had brain cancer and in retrospect we think that many of the things he said he had done or intended to do, never happened. This included recording passwords for facebook, netflix, apple, ancestry, etc. -
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Welcome, again, to the CBC Forum. Our topic: Have you had trouble accessing online accounts after the death of a loved one?
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Laws are laws, and none of them are perfectly appropriate to every situation.
Apple's hands are tied by legislation, and creating hysteria about it through the media, is completely unhelpful. -
Again, Apple admitted it was wrong to demand a court order.
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I don't disagree with Apple's reluctance here. I'd rather have high security than lax controls over access. Online accounts and emails are incredibly sensitive - it isn't just about games. Your account is often your entire identity. An email gives you access to almost everything you do online.
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Everyone in our house writes down their IDs and passwords on a sheet of paper. The paper goes in a sealed envelope with their name on the outside. The envelopes go in a plastic zip bag, then into the safe deposit box. There are two keys kept in separate locations. Trusted family members know where the keys are.
:-) -
Leaving a 'password' in your will or with a trustee is not clever; passwords are updated constantly. Any person who is the trustee of the will, either a lawyer or a friend of the deceased, has entire power over the dead person's estate and assets. They are the legal person until all property issues are settled,so they can obtain access to the account.
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fORMICA: That's why the estate lawyer we talked to advised against leaving passwords in a will, but including instructions on how to get them.
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John, how does apple helping the family mean they are disagreeing with me? They don't like bad press any more than anyone else so they will respond, it doesn't mean that your Apple ID has achieved an elevated information asset status. Just means that Apple wants to sell more devices to seniors.
As a "journalist" you can help by educating people on best practices rather than dramatizing something to be a "right". This scenario was preventable and it all rests with the device owners. -
Insofar as this is about the Apple story (and I know this might get me slammed) - Apple is right. If you have an Apple ID, those apps are tied to a person, not a device. If I sell an ipad, I am not supposed to pass on the apps - Apple assigns them to me. Many gaming apps even explicitly prohibit the transfer of game results (Clash of Clans, for example).
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Lorum Ipsum: That's an interesting point that speaks to the question of ownership of digital property. Can you leave your iTunes library to your love ones after you die, as you could a CD collection?
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Apple has a responsibility to ensure that fraud doesn't happen to user accounts. -
Brian Fortin: Yes, but surely the information the Bushes provided was enough without requiring them to go to a judge.
